Transcript: Ordained in spite of Everything
KM: My name is Karen MacKinnon, how to describe myself? Gosh, do I describe myself in terms of roles? I've got lots of roles. I'm a mum, I'm a wife, those things are really important to me, I'm a daughter, a sister. As a job I'm also a priest, I'm a chaplain, I'm a manager and I'm a person that enjoys life, likes a good laugh and a giggle, I love singing, I love life, yeah.
WW: I'm going to ask you something that probably wouldn't have come up in the conversation until halfway through, but just because you said you love life, is there
anything that's challenged you to make you appreciate life more?
KM: Yes, lots of things, first of all, working in a hospital you're surrounded by death, dying, tragedy, people living happily with their lives one minute and the next minute everything's changed. So that, of course, has helped me reflect on life, but personally I had breast cancer three years ago, thankfully I've survived. But it does affect you, it does change you and what came home to me during that illness is that actually we're not here for ever and I want to make each day count.
WW: Now, the reason we're talking today is because you, 25 years ago, were one of the first women to be ordained as a priest in the UK, so can you rewind to 25 years ago and give us context about that time?
KM: Gosh, yeah, it feels like another era, another lifetime ago, it was a time when lots of people were exercised about this whole question: should women be ordained or shouldn't they? For me it was always a no brainer: why shouldn't we be ordained? We believed in equality and if God was calling women into the church then why shouldn't we be ordained? But it was really quite a hot potato around that time. There was lots of nastiness as well in terms of, in some of the papers it's got women should be burned, for wanting to be ordained, burnt at the stake. It's almost like archaic. Some of the language was very hurtful of women, whereas actually there were a lot of good people that saw this as the right step forward. So it was an exciting time, it was a time there were lots of difficulties and challenges but it was also an exciting time because you felt like you were on the cusp of change. That something was going to change and that you were part of that and to be part of that was amazing and I've always got that.
WW: How did you know it's what you wanted to do?
KM: It didn't happen overnight. I always felt God was calling me to something but I didn't know what and funnily enough even at the age of 14, I wasn't even in the Church of England then, my family are Pentecostals, I was in their church. I remember sat on the swings outside of school with my mates in the lunchtime and saying "do you know what? I think I want to marry a vicar" and I couldn't have any concept at that point of being a minister myself, because that just wasn't heard of but even then there was something.
Then I went away to university, Exeter, I read Theology, and whilst I was there a lady at the Pentecostal church had heard me talking and she said "I want to introduce you to a retired Deaconess, and I went to see this lady and I can't describe it, she talked about here life's work, how she'd worked with people in the community and it felt like there was a fire inside and I kept thinking "that's it, that's what I want, that's what I feel is right for me." And I went back to my friends who didn't particularly have a faith and said "I want to be a Deaconess, I feel that that's what I want to do." And I was really, it was like a revelation to me and they were saying "well yeah, of course, we always saw you as a Marjorie Proops." People would always come and knock on my door in the middle of the night, with their problems, so they saw that as a natural thing. Whereas to me it was a huge revelation. So that's, I suppose, where that started.
WW: It wasn't easy was it? And you were the youngest of those 32 women that were ordained that day. You didn't have a career, unlike some of them, before that so you haven't got anything to compare it to, but do you think it's how you thought it would be?
KM: I don't remember having any clear thoughts about how it would be other than I wanted to get out there. The thing that really inspired me, it was in the 80s, so it was all that emphasis on faith in the cities and helping in the communities and for me it was a social action, it was getting down and dirty helping people in deprived communities and I wanted to be a part of that because I felt that was where we should be, loving people where they're at and I've always felt that. So, I suppose that's what drove me and that was the only vision I had of what it might be.
At that point I don't think I'd fully appreciated just how strongly some people felt against the ordination of women and I learnt that pretty soon, pretty quickly.
WW: Did that go on after ordination?
KM: Oh absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It was interesting that when we got ordained, ordinary people on the streets would just come up and shake our hands and say "congratulations, well done" I went into a pub with a friend shortly afterwards, I was wearing my collar and I heard all these whispers, you know "it's one of them, it's one of those women" and then they came over, these men and said "congratulations, this is really good". Women outside the school gates would be coming up and they'd be talking to us and telling us about situations that they'd been involved in that they couldn't talk to a man about, you know, rape, abuse that kind of thing. So you've got all that going on outside with people that weren't church goers but yet, within the church, that's where a lot of the hatred and misogyny, because I can't call it anything else, was going on. You know people, some men, would refuse to shake my hand during the peace and I remember saying "ok, I accept that you can't recognise that I'm a priest but accept that I'm a human being and you can wish me well" but they couldn't do that. Some of the women were just as bad, in fact sometimes they were worse. So, yeah, I'd have issues where I'd go on holiday and I'd try to get cover and the clergy would say to me "we couldn't possibly come to your church because it's contaminated" and that's the language that was used.
There was a lot of talk of Theology of Taint and that's any bishop who'd tainted themselves by laying hands on a woman. It's archaic.
WW: It's only 25 years ago. Do you think it still happens now?
KM: I think it does. I think it's probably less obvious, but I think it does. It's difficult for me to say more now because I don't work in that environment now, I work in an environment where it's all about equality, diversity and inclusivity and that's where I like working.
WW: And that's obviously as a hospital chaplain, here in Southampton, what helped you make the switch, what encouraged you to make that switch from church to hospital?
KM: I was looking to leave anyway, it was about a natural time for me to leave the parish and I saw an advert for trainee chaplain at the time, but someone who hadn't been in chaplaincy before but is an experienced priest and there was something about that advert that really struck me, there was opportunity to learn, opportunity to learn around clinical ethics, to work in a different environment I'd never worked in before and that just really appealed to me. The other thing, if I'm honest, was also the thought of working in a team.
It was so lonely working as a parish priest. I worked with the local headmistress and the social development worker, we got to be quite pally but they went home at the end of the day and I was the only one left on this estate with quite a lot of needs and it was very difficult to have mates really.
One of the first things, when I was offered the job at Southampton, I remember the team leader there saying "congratulations, you've got the job" and I put the phone down and my first thought was thank goodness I'm not going to be on my own anymore.
WW: I think it will come as quite a surprise to some people that, as the vicar of a church, you didn't feel like you had a community around you, on the surface it looks like there's lots of people helping, I think traditionally as well, the vicar had a vicar's wife, didn't he? To help. Where did you get your support from then when you were in the church and probably now, as a chaplain at the hospital?
KM: Back then, apart from my husband and one or two people in the church, there wasn't any support. I don't remember having any at all. I felt very much on my own. There were a group of us women who got ordained and we'd meet together every now and then but, basically, most of us were really struggling with lack of support.
Where do I get my support now? Still from my family, there's always been Colin and now my son as well, but also through a team of colleagues. You know when you come up the stairs in the chaplaincy office after you’ve had a really difficult patient visit and dealt with something that’s really difficult, like suicide or death or people’s, just wading through peoples’ tragedies, actually all you’ve got to say is “oh, it was x or a baby funeral” and without having to say anymore you know your colleagues know exactly what it’s like. So we support each other a lot.
WW: What kind of reactions do you get from patients within the hospital? I imagine there’s a variety of reactions.
KM: Yeah, but do you know what? They’re mostly positive. I think I can count on one hand any negative and usually it’s been because there’s a misunderstanding, or whatever. But mostly, really really positive and people are just so very grateful for so little. It’s so humbling. Sometimes you’ll have sat there and you’re not really sure what you’ve done but there’ll be so appreciative that you cared and you turned up and you were just there for them. And that’s a huge privilege.
WW: Is it possible for you to be off duty?
KM: Yes. Much more so than a parish priest. I know when I’m on duty and when I’m not and when I get in the car, as long as I’m not on-call, I know that that’s my down time. I’m home. And that’s the advantage as well. I hated living in a vicarage, I felt like I was in a goldfish bowl, because you felt like you were accessible day and night all the time and that’s, I know that’s why vicarages are there, in the parish, but actually it’s not very good for self care. So here I feel very much that I can get in the car, come home and I’m Karen and I haven’t got people knocking the door. And if somebody does call me up, because I’m the manager, it’s an emergency. It’s not, you know “can you tell me the time of the jumble sale?” Or “I know you’ve never seen me before in my life, but you’re cheap, can you sign my passport?” Laughter, so you know it really is someone who needs you.
WW: When you’re in the car, do you sing?
KM: Yes. Frequently, I don’t know what passersby must think [laughing], I’m in a rock choir and we download the songs to rehearse, so I’ve got them in the car, that’s where I learn them. So on the way to and from work I’m singing at the top of my voice [laughing] and yeah, sometimes people do give me strange looks [laughing].
WW: This might be the right time to ask when you do and don’t wear a dog collar.
KM: [Laughing] I um, yeah, I wear a collar when I’m working and I don’t wear it when I’m at home, contrary to popular belief, one nurse asked me once, seriously, she said “do you wear your dog collar in bed?” Really?! [Laughing] No! [Laughing]
WW: Are you more or less tolerant now than you were 25 years ago? More or less forgiving than you were 25 years ago? [KM laughing]
KM: No, I’m less tolerant now. I think I’ve become a grumpy old woman [laughing]. I am less tolerant of, of attitudes of some people, you know, um, just reading in the Church Times, reading back how it was in 1994, some of the letters you know, of people and their feelings about the ordination of women and those that were anti and they’re trying to dress it up as theology when actually it’s sheer misogyny and they haven’t even thought it through, it’s just prejudice. I’m not tolerant anymore. I used to bend over backwards to try and accommodate, but actually, do you know what? If they don’t agree with it then why are they in the Church of England because the Church of England ordains women and if you don’t like it , tough, go somewhere else. [Laughing] Ooh dear, did I just say that? [Laughing]
WW: Still recording.
KM: [Laughing]. But the Church of England ordains women so, [sigh] I don’t like the fact it almost feels like there are two identities. You can be in the Church of England and have an alternative bishop if you don’t like the idea of women priests. That to me undervalues, devalues, our ministry and I do feel that if that’s not your belief, if you don’t believe in women priests, then, then go somewhere else, that the Church of England isn’t the place for you. There are lots of other places that will welcome you and that’s fine. But you wouldn’t have a hospital that’s full of male only doctors, that’s not the real world, so why is the church doing that still? So I still feel like there’s a bit of a way to go.
WW: Now when you were a vicar in a parish, did you have any moments that were memorable for either the right or wrong reasons? I’m sure you’ve had experiences, are there any you’d like to share?
KM: [Laughing] That would be telling wouldn’t it? Um, the funeral director’s had phoned me up, as they do, telling me I’d got a funeral and I phoned up the family and said who I was [laughing], I’ll never forget this bloke, he seemed to have forgotten that I could hear what he was saying and he shouts to the rest of the family “the vicar’s on the phone, it’s a woman!” [Laughing] so funny, yeah, so it was quite a novelty.
WW: Do you think the Vicar of Dibley helped or hindered your cause?
KM: She absolutely helped our cause. For the first time people were laughing with her, not at the vicar. She made us accessible, actually, I’ve often been called the Vicar of Dibley. When I was in the hospice, I’d supported a dying lady and her husband had come up to the main desk to reception and he hadn’t noticed I was sitting there writing in notes and he said to the ward clerk, he said “can I, can I have an appointment for my wife please with the Vicar of Dibley? I can’t remember her name [laughing] and everybody knew exactly who he was talking about. So she did us a huge, I’m a great fan of Dawn French, she did us a huge favour.
WW: With the journey you’ve been through over the last 25 years, was there ever any occasion where you thought: I’m done, I’ve had enough?
KM: There’ve been quite a few occasions when I’ve felt that. You know you look back and think why did I do that? There were other careers, other jobs I could’ve done. And yes there were, but this was the path that life took me down. It may not be forever, who knows what’s there ahead, I don’t know. But yeah, there’ve been moments; I think there probably have for most people in whatever job you have to be honest. But funnily enough, that hasn’t happened in chaplaincy. And again I think it’s because it’s a good balance with self-care, there’s a much better work-life balance and I think that helps, not living on the job. I’ve forgotten the original question now.
WW: Was there ever a time you thought I’m done?
KM: [Quietly] Yeah. [Sigh] I think there was early on, for various reasons there was. Life wasn’t easy and it was usually lack of support from other clergy, um, and you think “why am I putting myself through this when I don’t need to?” And there was a lot of insecurity with some clergy, an insecurity on the part of vicars’ wives as well. For many they’d been almost the unpaid curate, not all of them, but um. My second curacy, I did two curacies, my second curacy was wonderful where the priest was very supportive, his wife she had a life of her own, a career of her own, which is brilliant and she was lovely too. But when I went on interview for jobs I remember one vicar’s wife, she interviewed me! I couldn’t get over that, she actually interviewed me and her first comment was: “I suppose you’ll be one of these people that call God ‘She’ won’t you?” And I just looked at her and thought: “there’s no way I’m coming here, you know you can tell her rules the roost here” [laughing]. She was clearly very threatened. And that was quite hard to understand at the time… yeah.
WW: And then with your, I’m thinking about challenges in faith, because that must have challenged you, what you’ve just shared there, and then with your illness just a few years ago, how do you manage your thoughts, emotions, responses to something like breast cancer? How do you juggle faith with reality?
KM: I think illness is part of life and I think life is much more complicated than I ever thought it was when I was younger. Things aren’t black and white, they’re very grey. I think early on I use to be a bit more rigid in my thinking. I’m not anymore. I think when you’ve lived a bit and seen a bit of life, things don’t fit easily and I think I’ve always struggled with faith and doubt and belief and do you know what? I think that’s been a strength as a chaplain because I can identify with those who struggle to have a faith or don’t believe at all. That’s not such a huge leap for me. As well as being able to support those who are, that do have a faith, sorry. And I think, oh I don’t know, the Church, whatever church it is can become quite precious about its beliefs, its rituals, its traditions and for me God, whatever God is, is bigger than religion, bigger than church, that’s what we do as human beings to contain something that is actually uncontainable.
WW: Do you have a favourite verse? Now, I ask you “do you have a favourite verse” and I’m not expecting a conventional answer, don’t know why that is [laughing] do you have a favourite verse Karen?
KM: [Laughing] Um, I have thought about this, obviously there are verses that I like. I’m more used to quoting Lord of the Rings [laughing] than I am the Bible [laughing]. I suppose one verse that is, um, means a lot to me is the bit about um, rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. That’s very core to my day job. The other bit is love one another as you love yourself and I think loving yourself is something that, that I’ve had to learn and looking after myself. And that that’s not bad, and I think a lot of ministers need to learn self-care. One other one, just because it’s joyful is that bit about, you shall go out with joy and be led force with peace and the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you. You know it’s something about nature and the wonder of the universe and the colour and the joy and I think working in an environment where there is a lot of sadness, there is a lot of darkness; a lot of it is sitting at the foot of the cross with people. It’s so important to have that balance, that contrast outside of that to keep me sane really. You might not agree that I’m sane but [laughing].
WW: I’m not going to pass comment on that [Karen laughing], just one last thing, 25 years since you were ordained as a priest in the Church of England, along with 31 other women, would you recommend it as a career choice, to a man or a woman?
KM: [Sigh] Um, yes, well I’d certainly recommend chaplaincy. I don’t feel like I can really comment on parish ministry now because it’s been so long, I’ve been out of it for 18 years. So I’m not really sure what that’s like anymore, but certainly, chaplaincy I think it’s a really rewarding, rewarding ministry. You’re working with people of all different professions, different skills abilities, different beliefs and views but actually what unites us all is you’re trying to do the best you can for the patient and I love that sense of working together. I don’t think, I wouldn’t want to do the job on my own, I think you need someone else to actually come back, who understands, but also somebody who’s got a black sense of humour as well and can see the funny side of things even in the middle of it all.
WW: You mentioned sense of humour earlier when we were chatting, you said “God must have a sense of humour to have put me in a hospital, can you explain that?”
KM: [Laughing] I’m not very good with bodily fluids at all [laughing], I’ve got a very queasy stomach and when patients say to me, because sometimes they do, “ooh do you want to look at my wound?” Oh no, absolutely not, you know? And I’m the first person to run away and throw a vomit bowl in the direction if they say they feel sick I’m saying “I’ll just get a nurse for you”. It’s not me at all [laughing] and I don’t like germs [laughing] so yeah, I don’t know what I’m doing in a hospital really [laughing].
WW: I'm going to ask you something that probably wouldn't have come up in the conversation until halfway through, but just because you said you love life, is there
anything that's challenged you to make you appreciate life more?
KM: Yes, lots of things, first of all, working in a hospital you're surrounded by death, dying, tragedy, people living happily with their lives one minute and the next minute everything's changed. So that, of course, has helped me reflect on life, but personally I had breast cancer three years ago, thankfully I've survived. But it does affect you, it does change you and what came home to me during that illness is that actually we're not here for ever and I want to make each day count.
WW: Now, the reason we're talking today is because you, 25 years ago, were one of the first women to be ordained as a priest in the UK, so can you rewind to 25 years ago and give us context about that time?
KM: Gosh, yeah, it feels like another era, another lifetime ago, it was a time when lots of people were exercised about this whole question: should women be ordained or shouldn't they? For me it was always a no brainer: why shouldn't we be ordained? We believed in equality and if God was calling women into the church then why shouldn't we be ordained? But it was really quite a hot potato around that time. There was lots of nastiness as well in terms of, in some of the papers it's got women should be burned, for wanting to be ordained, burnt at the stake. It's almost like archaic. Some of the language was very hurtful of women, whereas actually there were a lot of good people that saw this as the right step forward. So it was an exciting time, it was a time there were lots of difficulties and challenges but it was also an exciting time because you felt like you were on the cusp of change. That something was going to change and that you were part of that and to be part of that was amazing and I've always got that.
WW: How did you know it's what you wanted to do?
KM: It didn't happen overnight. I always felt God was calling me to something but I didn't know what and funnily enough even at the age of 14, I wasn't even in the Church of England then, my family are Pentecostals, I was in their church. I remember sat on the swings outside of school with my mates in the lunchtime and saying "do you know what? I think I want to marry a vicar" and I couldn't have any concept at that point of being a minister myself, because that just wasn't heard of but even then there was something.
Then I went away to university, Exeter, I read Theology, and whilst I was there a lady at the Pentecostal church had heard me talking and she said "I want to introduce you to a retired Deaconess, and I went to see this lady and I can't describe it, she talked about here life's work, how she'd worked with people in the community and it felt like there was a fire inside and I kept thinking "that's it, that's what I want, that's what I feel is right for me." And I went back to my friends who didn't particularly have a faith and said "I want to be a Deaconess, I feel that that's what I want to do." And I was really, it was like a revelation to me and they were saying "well yeah, of course, we always saw you as a Marjorie Proops." People would always come and knock on my door in the middle of the night, with their problems, so they saw that as a natural thing. Whereas to me it was a huge revelation. So that's, I suppose, where that started.
WW: It wasn't easy was it? And you were the youngest of those 32 women that were ordained that day. You didn't have a career, unlike some of them, before that so you haven't got anything to compare it to, but do you think it's how you thought it would be?
KM: I don't remember having any clear thoughts about how it would be other than I wanted to get out there. The thing that really inspired me, it was in the 80s, so it was all that emphasis on faith in the cities and helping in the communities and for me it was a social action, it was getting down and dirty helping people in deprived communities and I wanted to be a part of that because I felt that was where we should be, loving people where they're at and I've always felt that. So, I suppose that's what drove me and that was the only vision I had of what it might be.
At that point I don't think I'd fully appreciated just how strongly some people felt against the ordination of women and I learnt that pretty soon, pretty quickly.
WW: Did that go on after ordination?
KM: Oh absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It was interesting that when we got ordained, ordinary people on the streets would just come up and shake our hands and say "congratulations, well done" I went into a pub with a friend shortly afterwards, I was wearing my collar and I heard all these whispers, you know "it's one of them, it's one of those women" and then they came over, these men and said "congratulations, this is really good". Women outside the school gates would be coming up and they'd be talking to us and telling us about situations that they'd been involved in that they couldn't talk to a man about, you know, rape, abuse that kind of thing. So you've got all that going on outside with people that weren't church goers but yet, within the church, that's where a lot of the hatred and misogyny, because I can't call it anything else, was going on. You know people, some men, would refuse to shake my hand during the peace and I remember saying "ok, I accept that you can't recognise that I'm a priest but accept that I'm a human being and you can wish me well" but they couldn't do that. Some of the women were just as bad, in fact sometimes they were worse. So, yeah, I'd have issues where I'd go on holiday and I'd try to get cover and the clergy would say to me "we couldn't possibly come to your church because it's contaminated" and that's the language that was used.
There was a lot of talk of Theology of Taint and that's any bishop who'd tainted themselves by laying hands on a woman. It's archaic.
WW: It's only 25 years ago. Do you think it still happens now?
KM: I think it does. I think it's probably less obvious, but I think it does. It's difficult for me to say more now because I don't work in that environment now, I work in an environment where it's all about equality, diversity and inclusivity and that's where I like working.
WW: And that's obviously as a hospital chaplain, here in Southampton, what helped you make the switch, what encouraged you to make that switch from church to hospital?
KM: I was looking to leave anyway, it was about a natural time for me to leave the parish and I saw an advert for trainee chaplain at the time, but someone who hadn't been in chaplaincy before but is an experienced priest and there was something about that advert that really struck me, there was opportunity to learn, opportunity to learn around clinical ethics, to work in a different environment I'd never worked in before and that just really appealed to me. The other thing, if I'm honest, was also the thought of working in a team.
It was so lonely working as a parish priest. I worked with the local headmistress and the social development worker, we got to be quite pally but they went home at the end of the day and I was the only one left on this estate with quite a lot of needs and it was very difficult to have mates really.
One of the first things, when I was offered the job at Southampton, I remember the team leader there saying "congratulations, you've got the job" and I put the phone down and my first thought was thank goodness I'm not going to be on my own anymore.
WW: I think it will come as quite a surprise to some people that, as the vicar of a church, you didn't feel like you had a community around you, on the surface it looks like there's lots of people helping, I think traditionally as well, the vicar had a vicar's wife, didn't he? To help. Where did you get your support from then when you were in the church and probably now, as a chaplain at the hospital?
KM: Back then, apart from my husband and one or two people in the church, there wasn't any support. I don't remember having any at all. I felt very much on my own. There were a group of us women who got ordained and we'd meet together every now and then but, basically, most of us were really struggling with lack of support.
Where do I get my support now? Still from my family, there's always been Colin and now my son as well, but also through a team of colleagues. You know when you come up the stairs in the chaplaincy office after you’ve had a really difficult patient visit and dealt with something that’s really difficult, like suicide or death or people’s, just wading through peoples’ tragedies, actually all you’ve got to say is “oh, it was x or a baby funeral” and without having to say anymore you know your colleagues know exactly what it’s like. So we support each other a lot.
WW: What kind of reactions do you get from patients within the hospital? I imagine there’s a variety of reactions.
KM: Yeah, but do you know what? They’re mostly positive. I think I can count on one hand any negative and usually it’s been because there’s a misunderstanding, or whatever. But mostly, really really positive and people are just so very grateful for so little. It’s so humbling. Sometimes you’ll have sat there and you’re not really sure what you’ve done but there’ll be so appreciative that you cared and you turned up and you were just there for them. And that’s a huge privilege.
WW: Is it possible for you to be off duty?
KM: Yes. Much more so than a parish priest. I know when I’m on duty and when I’m not and when I get in the car, as long as I’m not on-call, I know that that’s my down time. I’m home. And that’s the advantage as well. I hated living in a vicarage, I felt like I was in a goldfish bowl, because you felt like you were accessible day and night all the time and that’s, I know that’s why vicarages are there, in the parish, but actually it’s not very good for self care. So here I feel very much that I can get in the car, come home and I’m Karen and I haven’t got people knocking the door. And if somebody does call me up, because I’m the manager, it’s an emergency. It’s not, you know “can you tell me the time of the jumble sale?” Or “I know you’ve never seen me before in my life, but you’re cheap, can you sign my passport?” Laughter, so you know it really is someone who needs you.
WW: When you’re in the car, do you sing?
KM: Yes. Frequently, I don’t know what passersby must think [laughing], I’m in a rock choir and we download the songs to rehearse, so I’ve got them in the car, that’s where I learn them. So on the way to and from work I’m singing at the top of my voice [laughing] and yeah, sometimes people do give me strange looks [laughing].
WW: This might be the right time to ask when you do and don’t wear a dog collar.
KM: [Laughing] I um, yeah, I wear a collar when I’m working and I don’t wear it when I’m at home, contrary to popular belief, one nurse asked me once, seriously, she said “do you wear your dog collar in bed?” Really?! [Laughing] No! [Laughing]
WW: Are you more or less tolerant now than you were 25 years ago? More or less forgiving than you were 25 years ago? [KM laughing]
KM: No, I’m less tolerant now. I think I’ve become a grumpy old woman [laughing]. I am less tolerant of, of attitudes of some people, you know, um, just reading in the Church Times, reading back how it was in 1994, some of the letters you know, of people and their feelings about the ordination of women and those that were anti and they’re trying to dress it up as theology when actually it’s sheer misogyny and they haven’t even thought it through, it’s just prejudice. I’m not tolerant anymore. I used to bend over backwards to try and accommodate, but actually, do you know what? If they don’t agree with it then why are they in the Church of England because the Church of England ordains women and if you don’t like it , tough, go somewhere else. [Laughing] Ooh dear, did I just say that? [Laughing]
WW: Still recording.
KM: [Laughing]. But the Church of England ordains women so, [sigh] I don’t like the fact it almost feels like there are two identities. You can be in the Church of England and have an alternative bishop if you don’t like the idea of women priests. That to me undervalues, devalues, our ministry and I do feel that if that’s not your belief, if you don’t believe in women priests, then, then go somewhere else, that the Church of England isn’t the place for you. There are lots of other places that will welcome you and that’s fine. But you wouldn’t have a hospital that’s full of male only doctors, that’s not the real world, so why is the church doing that still? So I still feel like there’s a bit of a way to go.
WW: Now when you were a vicar in a parish, did you have any moments that were memorable for either the right or wrong reasons? I’m sure you’ve had experiences, are there any you’d like to share?
KM: [Laughing] That would be telling wouldn’t it? Um, the funeral director’s had phoned me up, as they do, telling me I’d got a funeral and I phoned up the family and said who I was [laughing], I’ll never forget this bloke, he seemed to have forgotten that I could hear what he was saying and he shouts to the rest of the family “the vicar’s on the phone, it’s a woman!” [Laughing] so funny, yeah, so it was quite a novelty.
WW: Do you think the Vicar of Dibley helped or hindered your cause?
KM: She absolutely helped our cause. For the first time people were laughing with her, not at the vicar. She made us accessible, actually, I’ve often been called the Vicar of Dibley. When I was in the hospice, I’d supported a dying lady and her husband had come up to the main desk to reception and he hadn’t noticed I was sitting there writing in notes and he said to the ward clerk, he said “can I, can I have an appointment for my wife please with the Vicar of Dibley? I can’t remember her name [laughing] and everybody knew exactly who he was talking about. So she did us a huge, I’m a great fan of Dawn French, she did us a huge favour.
WW: With the journey you’ve been through over the last 25 years, was there ever any occasion where you thought: I’m done, I’ve had enough?
KM: There’ve been quite a few occasions when I’ve felt that. You know you look back and think why did I do that? There were other careers, other jobs I could’ve done. And yes there were, but this was the path that life took me down. It may not be forever, who knows what’s there ahead, I don’t know. But yeah, there’ve been moments; I think there probably have for most people in whatever job you have to be honest. But funnily enough, that hasn’t happened in chaplaincy. And again I think it’s because it’s a good balance with self-care, there’s a much better work-life balance and I think that helps, not living on the job. I’ve forgotten the original question now.
WW: Was there ever a time you thought I’m done?
KM: [Quietly] Yeah. [Sigh] I think there was early on, for various reasons there was. Life wasn’t easy and it was usually lack of support from other clergy, um, and you think “why am I putting myself through this when I don’t need to?” And there was a lot of insecurity with some clergy, an insecurity on the part of vicars’ wives as well. For many they’d been almost the unpaid curate, not all of them, but um. My second curacy, I did two curacies, my second curacy was wonderful where the priest was very supportive, his wife she had a life of her own, a career of her own, which is brilliant and she was lovely too. But when I went on interview for jobs I remember one vicar’s wife, she interviewed me! I couldn’t get over that, she actually interviewed me and her first comment was: “I suppose you’ll be one of these people that call God ‘She’ won’t you?” And I just looked at her and thought: “there’s no way I’m coming here, you know you can tell her rules the roost here” [laughing]. She was clearly very threatened. And that was quite hard to understand at the time… yeah.
WW: And then with your, I’m thinking about challenges in faith, because that must have challenged you, what you’ve just shared there, and then with your illness just a few years ago, how do you manage your thoughts, emotions, responses to something like breast cancer? How do you juggle faith with reality?
KM: I think illness is part of life and I think life is much more complicated than I ever thought it was when I was younger. Things aren’t black and white, they’re very grey. I think early on I use to be a bit more rigid in my thinking. I’m not anymore. I think when you’ve lived a bit and seen a bit of life, things don’t fit easily and I think I’ve always struggled with faith and doubt and belief and do you know what? I think that’s been a strength as a chaplain because I can identify with those who struggle to have a faith or don’t believe at all. That’s not such a huge leap for me. As well as being able to support those who are, that do have a faith, sorry. And I think, oh I don’t know, the Church, whatever church it is can become quite precious about its beliefs, its rituals, its traditions and for me God, whatever God is, is bigger than religion, bigger than church, that’s what we do as human beings to contain something that is actually uncontainable.
WW: Do you have a favourite verse? Now, I ask you “do you have a favourite verse” and I’m not expecting a conventional answer, don’t know why that is [laughing] do you have a favourite verse Karen?
KM: [Laughing] Um, I have thought about this, obviously there are verses that I like. I’m more used to quoting Lord of the Rings [laughing] than I am the Bible [laughing]. I suppose one verse that is, um, means a lot to me is the bit about um, rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. That’s very core to my day job. The other bit is love one another as you love yourself and I think loving yourself is something that, that I’ve had to learn and looking after myself. And that that’s not bad, and I think a lot of ministers need to learn self-care. One other one, just because it’s joyful is that bit about, you shall go out with joy and be led force with peace and the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you. You know it’s something about nature and the wonder of the universe and the colour and the joy and I think working in an environment where there is a lot of sadness, there is a lot of darkness; a lot of it is sitting at the foot of the cross with people. It’s so important to have that balance, that contrast outside of that to keep me sane really. You might not agree that I’m sane but [laughing].
WW: I’m not going to pass comment on that [Karen laughing], just one last thing, 25 years since you were ordained as a priest in the Church of England, along with 31 other women, would you recommend it as a career choice, to a man or a woman?
KM: [Sigh] Um, yes, well I’d certainly recommend chaplaincy. I don’t feel like I can really comment on parish ministry now because it’s been so long, I’ve been out of it for 18 years. So I’m not really sure what that’s like anymore, but certainly, chaplaincy I think it’s a really rewarding, rewarding ministry. You’re working with people of all different professions, different skills abilities, different beliefs and views but actually what unites us all is you’re trying to do the best you can for the patient and I love that sense of working together. I don’t think, I wouldn’t want to do the job on my own, I think you need someone else to actually come back, who understands, but also somebody who’s got a black sense of humour as well and can see the funny side of things even in the middle of it all.
WW: You mentioned sense of humour earlier when we were chatting, you said “God must have a sense of humour to have put me in a hospital, can you explain that?”
KM: [Laughing] I’m not very good with bodily fluids at all [laughing], I’ve got a very queasy stomach and when patients say to me, because sometimes they do, “ooh do you want to look at my wound?” Oh no, absolutely not, you know? And I’m the first person to run away and throw a vomit bowl in the direction if they say they feel sick I’m saying “I’ll just get a nurse for you”. It’s not me at all [laughing] and I don’t like germs [laughing] so yeah, I don’t know what I’m doing in a hospital really [laughing].